Just wondering, do you know what this was?
Once upon a time, before Varsity scouts (and the current concept of āOlder Scoutā Patrols), we the older scouts were part of a loose cross-patrol collective called the Leadership Corps. In my troop, we served as institutional memory for the PLC, for the most part. We had to be selected by a combination of the SPL (IIRC) and SM, upon recommendation by the scouts in our patrol. In my troop, I think we also had to have held another āseniorā leadership position (including SPL, ASPL, PL or JASM, if i recall correctly). This is delving deep into the mists of timeā¦
ETA: Somewhere I still have one of the red and gold keystone patches, as well as the round one they replaced it with in the late 80ās.
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Hmm. Very interesting history.
@scouter11 - on page 27 of the handbook from 1972:
The leadership corps is a group in some troops to help younger troop members and patrol leaders when asked. To have a leadership corps the troop must have at least three scouts who are at least 14 or 15 years of age, are First Class or above, and show that they have what it takes to be leaders. Members may wear the green uniform and a red beret regardless of the troops uniform option choice.
OH - the red beret 
Zap
@Stephen_Hornak and @DonovanMcNeil, you guys are killing me. And for the record, I hated wearing those stupid beretsā¦but they did make great Frisbees. 
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It happens in my troop. I make it clear that if a patrol wants to reconfigure, they can always elect a new PL. Knowing that they are just a half dozen unsatisfied scouts away from being replaced keeps them sharp and present at every PLC.
If the APL doesnāt want to leave his position, he can simple ask the SM for a project that benefits the troop. Thereās always things that need to get done that fall through the cracks of other troop positions.
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Your SM and committee should have extremely clear expectations (preferably written out so candidates to review them and ask questions about them) for what each POR should be doing, and the SPL and SM should be communicating with the Scouts in the PORs to make sure theyāre doing what you expect them to do.
If either of these things isnāt happening, itās not the kids in the PORs that are failing to perform, itās the Troop leadership.
Iāve reread this thread several times. Hereās what the requirement says for the top 3 ranks:
ā¦serve actively in your unit for four months in one or more of the following positions of responsibility (or carry out a Scoutmaster-assigned leadership project to help the unit):
Boy Scout troop. Patrol leader, assistant senior patrol leader, senior patrol leader, Venture patrol leader, troop guide, Order of the Arrow troop representative, den chief, scribe, librarian, historian, quartermaster, bugler, junior assistant Scoutmaster, chaplain aide, instructor, troop Webmaster, or Leave No Trace trainer.
Varsity Scout team. Captain, cocaptain, program manager, squad leader, team secretary, Order of the Arrow troop representative, librarian, historian, quartermaster, chaplain aide, instructor, den chief, team Webmaster, or Leave No Trace trainer.
Venturing crew/ship. President, vice president, secretary, treasurer, den chief, quartermaster, historian, guide, boatswain, boatswainās mate, yeoman, purser, storekeeper, crew/ship Webmaster, or Leave No Trace trainer.
While it is a head scratcher as to why APL is left out with roles like bugler being allowed. Iām guessing APL is one of the roles you will see in the very early ranks. Perhaps the BSA wants Scouts to experience several roles to have a more rounded life experience.
For the APL, I would invoke the clause āor carry out a Scoutmaster-assigned leadership project to help the unitā and give the APL the reigns to run a service project that will help the Scout prepare for his/her Eagle project. Thereās always a way around things
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Well in my unit Bugler is pretty tough - as they will be (in normal years) on every monthly campout - and often play revelry before the SM makes the coffee
Yeah, if your Bugler is really doing the Bugler job, heās responsible for sounding reville, assembly and taps at campouts and Courts of Honor. So the Buglerās got to have good time management and organization skills, etc. to make sure the events are moving forward.
We restrict the Bugler position to Scouts that have earned the Music MB and are interested in the Bugling MB. With the number of marching band kids in our Troop, it turns out that this isnāt much of a restrictionā¦ I think my son is the only one in the Troop thatās high-school-aged and not in marching band (he performs with the Menās Chorus instead).
Scouts BSA Advancement and Awards (scroll down for the rank requirements).
Star rank requirements:
Life rank requirements for POR are similar to Star rank, but see note 9.
Eagle Scout rank requirements:
The BSAās Guide to Advancement section 4.2.3.4 covers positions of responsibility, including:
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It is a good position to have for our Troop. When the Patrol Leader cannot attend a PLC meeting he is required to contact the APL to attend in his place. Also it is a good way for younger Scouts who may not be willing to take on Patrol Leader to get some exposure to leadership without the full responsibility.
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if your PL is not performing his duties, he should be removed from that position. Plain and simple. The APL would then transition into that role. Or the APL can apply to be on the ballot to be voted in if you choose that method.
bottom line is, if ANY scout is not performing the duties of their position they should be removed from such position, and they do not get credit for it. The problem that comes up is that if you have a scout not performing, and remains in the position, he gets credit for that position regardless if he sat on his thumbs and did NOTHING the entire time, or if he was a stellar, Powell-esce example of what that POR should beā¦ You DO NOT want to reward someone that is not performingā¦
so in your case, remove the PLā¦ and promote the APL so the APL gets credit for the positionā¦
ware you Scoutmaster of said troop?
Mike B
Iām guessing you would sit down and have a conference with the PL and talk about his/her shortcomings to see if improvement is possible. We should strive to put our Scouts in positions to succeed. In a conference it may be discovered the Scout may be having personal problems, or didnāt understand the responsibilities of the position. The Scout may decide her/she is no longer wants the job.
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A few things to unpack hereā¦
Iām taking it for granted youāre communicating your expectations to your Scouts clearly before booting them, right? If you arenāt, itās not the Scouts that are failing to perform their duties.
Thatās a pretty unfriendly position to take. The point of Scouts is to let the youth learn, and our responisibility as adult leaders is to give them a safe environment to lean by failure. Booting a 12-year old from his position of responsibility because you donāt think heās doing well is the exact opposite of letting the youth fail safely so they can learn.
None of us (mostly, at least) sprung fully-formed from Zeusās forehead with complete knowledge and experience to be a leader, and itās unfair to expect a 12 or 13 year old to excel in a new role the first time they try it.
Nope. In the OPās case, talk to the patrol leader. Make sure they understand the expectations of the role, and learn from them why theyāre having trouble ā if, in fact they are having trouble, and itās not a case of the SM have a skewed expectation of what a young teen should be capable of. And develop a plan to help the Scout excel, instead of making it clear to them that you only care about results.
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yes, of course! ALL my scouts know what is involved with their PoR. If they are not living up to the standard that it is expected, they have plenty of guidance and opportunities to better themselvesā¦ If the scout is TRYING, that is basically all I askā¦ the OP said the PL is basically not doing anything and just sitting on their thumbsā¦ I assumed that is even AFTER a conference with his SPL was had, AND a SM conference after thatā¦
sheesh people so quick to judge othersā¦ if the scout is doing NOTHING, he deserves to be removed from his PoRā¦
Mike B
you are assuming a lot there and NOT assuming a lot tooā¦you are so quick to judge, you should look inward unto yourselfā¦
- if a scout is NOT performing his duties, AFTER his SPL has had a conference with him, AND after a SM conference has been had, the scout is STILL not doing squat for his PoRā¦ yes, he deserves to be removed from that positionā¦ ALL scouts get plenty of opportunity to excel in their PoR, ALL I ASK is that they at least TRYā¦ I never once said the scout has to be Zeusās child and be the Queenās gift to all Patrol Leadersā¦ wowā¦ just WOWā¦ I never said I would boot him because I feel he is not doing wellā¦ you can be the poorest excuse for a PL in the entire world, but if you are trying your bestā¦ hell, even if you are simply TRYING, you are fulfilling that roleā¦ the youth the OP spoke about appeared to be not even trying and the APL had to perform his dutiesā¦ Keeping that PL in the Position is ONLY teaching him that he can do nothing in life because someone else will do it for him and he will still get paidā¦
If a scout is doing NOTHING and not TRYING at all, you would leave him in that PoR? That is NOT helping that youth, that is harming him and rewarding him for doing NOTHINGā¦ We are building and teaching LEADERS, not slugsā¦ sorry that you think everyone deserves a trophy, but sorry, not everyone doesā¦ you learn a LOT more from failure than you do from successā¦
NOPE! I will have that youth removed from his PoR thank you very muchā¦ perhaps next time he will understand that a PoR is just that a position of RESPONSIBILITYā¦ and yes, there will be a next time, and my SPL and I will ensure that he is aware of what the position entailsā¦ there is always a chance or two to redeem yourself in my troopā¦
Mike B
