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Sailing through Youth Protection (YPT)

That exception is for Merit Badges and fundraising ONLY.

The question. Do you need 2 registered adults? The answer, yes.
Question: Does this include MBC and fundraising? Answer: Parents can be the the second in those cases.

Nothing negates the question that you need 2 registered adults at all activities. The only exception is MBC and fundraising where a parent could be the exception.

For ALL activities, IF ANY GIRLS ARE THERE, one of the 2 registered adults must be a female.

I still disagree. Please read my reply to ErikLitts on 07/16/21.
Please explain the fault in the following logic, or reference another documented source supporting yours. I place no extra relevance in using all capital letters and am using bold below to try and make the logic easier to follow.

  1. The FAQ question says: “Does that include…”
  2. That,” in this case, is " The Barriers to Abuse say that there must be two registered adults present for all Scouting activities and meetings."
  3. The FAQ directly answers the question regarding the 2 activity examples.
  4. The FAQ answer also states "However, the parent or legal guardian of the Scout may serve as the second adult. " There is no specific reference to the 2 examples in this statement and the FAQ answer is commenting on the “that” of the FAQ question by using the word “however” to separate the answer from the 2 examples.

Go back and read the main G2SS. Are the exceptions called out there? No, no they are not. There are two exceptions: MBC and fundraising. Feel free to continue to skate the rules. No Troop I know interprets it the way you do. Why not ask your Scout Executive, I know the answer.

@MatthewLettrich A prior version of the guide to safe scouting used to allow for the a parent to be the second adult in all situations. It now specifically says two registered adult leaders over the age of 21. That was an intentional change. If a non-registered parent could be used in all situations, it would still say so in the GTSS itself.

Further, The two activities that allow for parents to be the second adult are activities that could reasonably involve a single scout. The use of “the scout” in the FAQ has lead many to interpret that to mean the exception only applies when there is a single scout in those activities.

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Thank you for contributing to this string. The Scoutbook User Advisory Council is so far the highest level in the BSA to show an interest in this string.

The father of the female scout is a registered adult leader. As you say, there must be 2 registered adult leaders in any case. If he were not, we’d need a third adult. Also, we do not hold activities of less than 3 scouts. We’ve found that if we can’t get the scouts to work as a group, the full value of the program is not being pursued.

I’m taking great care in not making any unsubstantiated interpretations of the FAQs. I’ve logically extracted the meaning of the words the BSA has chosen to publish in the FAQs and have presented that logic for review in my earlier replies in this string. That logic is so far unrefuted.

How does Youth Protection affect merit badge counseling?

As in all Scouting activities, no one-on-one contact is permitted, and two-deep leadership is required. However, in the case of merit badge counseling, one of the Scout’s parents can serve as the second required adult.

Emphasis added.

The Guide to Safe Scouting and Barriers to Abuse are clear, if there is a single female youth present, there must be a female registered adult over the age of 21 present. There is no exception for the Scout’s father (except in the case of working with a Merit Badge Counselor or fundraising) to fulfill the 2nd registered adult requirement.

In other words, even if the female Scout’s father is present, you must still have a female registered leader over the age of 21 present at the event. If you disagree with this, contact your Scout Executive. They are the ones delegated to interpret the Youth Protection requirements.

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No other “levels of the BSA” weigh in on Scoutbook. If you want an official source confirm your misconceptions around an unregistered male parent, please talk to your Scout Executive. You will not get an official response here.

Thank you for your reply regarding an official BSA response in this string. I’ve already asked you to contradict my logic in the above string. You have not. If you will read the same strings carefully, you will see that the father of the female scout is registered. I concede no misconception.

I am not required to adhere to “Scouting Magazine” interpretations. I believe their interpretation is wrong for the reason’s I’ve offered in the above logic written in this string. If I am required to follow “Scouting Magazine’s” directives, please reference same in the BSA documentation.

If the Guide to Safe Scouting and Barriers to Abuse were clear, this string would not be 25 entries deep and there would be no need for FAQs. Again, please refute my logic rather than reiterating your opinion regarding the alleged exceptions. I see no further interpretation necessary.

There is no logic to refute. Read the guide to safe scouting. There is no parent exception. Also, if any female present, one of the 2 required registered adults must be female. Please reread my response. If you choose to apply logic by parsing an FAQ, you are choosing to ignore the core G2SS. This is at the peril of your registration, your unit, and your chartered organization. It is not the logic that needs to be refuted, but the choice to not follow the G2SS.

I agree that there are some things that aren’t exactly clear. It has been pointed out several times now that the Scout Exec is the ultimate authority within each council.

If you are willing to apply a little logic, the faq specifically addresses lions and tigers which always have a parent present. The answer makes it clear that parents do not count in most circumstances toward meeting two-deep leadership.

Q. Do Lion and Tiger Den meetings require two-deep leadership since adult partners are present?

A. Yes. A Lion or Tiger adult partner is not considered a registered leader for meeting two-deep leadership requirements. Lion or Tiger partners, as well as other pack leaders, provide a pool of adults who could be registered as an assistant den leader to meet this requirement.

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I don’t know where you believe I am referencing Scouting Magazine. I only referenced the Guide to Safe Scouting and the Barriers to Abuse (which is in the Guide to Safe Scouting). As multiple people have told you, if you believe you can replace a female leader over the age of 21 with the female Scout’s father, contact your council Scout Executive. They are the ones empowered to interpret the policies for their Council.

Violating the Barriers to Abuse is grounds for suspension or permanent ban from registering with the BSA. Violations could also put your unit’s charter in jeopardy.

Until I received written clarification from the Council Scout Executive, I would follow the most conservative reading of the policies, which in your case, would mean even if the Scout’s father is present, you still must have a registered female over the age of 21 present.

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Transit Ashore v.s. Transit Afloat

Land activities are assumed to be at a location that is traveled to.

There are youth protection rules for transporting scouts to those activities, which may include activities afloat. How do those rules apply when the transit vehicle is a plane or water vessel and not a land vehicle?

For insurance (an liability) purposes BSA has to be clear when the transit is a scouting activity and when it is not.

Float plans appear to be focused on being prepared to rescue participants.

The issue appears to be what are the rules when the transit is the Scouting activity. Can the transit rules be applied?

Council Scouting Executive appears to have the final word.
Council may have a volunteer “safety officer” that you have to go through.

I think he was conflating my response with yours, @edavignon. I’m not sure why one would choose to discount an interpretation published in an official BSA publication.

At the risk of coming across as combative, I will offer the following opinion. It appears, whether this is his intention or not, that @MatthewLettrich has made up his mind and does not want the answer to be other than what he has concluded. I draw this conclusion based on his apparent willingness to ignore the multiple examples from various BSA publications that are inconsistent with his interpretation.

Also, if he really wants a conclusive official BSA answer (presuming that he discounts the ones to which he’s already been directed), there are two different ways to get there. As you and others have pointed out, he can ask his council Scout Exec. He can also use the official inquiry link at the Scouting Safely website, which I will note also refers the person to their council for clarifications. Got Questions? | Boy Scouts of America

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I apologize for sending my reply to another post to you. Yes, it was clearly meant for the magazine reference by CharleyHamilton . Again, I am sorry for injecting such a distraction in this discussion.
I am already pursuing an answer through the BSA chain of command parallel to this discussion.

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Regarding the magazine:

  • How many back issues of this publication, https://scoutingmagazine.org/, should be referenced to establish a policy? A magazine is a topical discussion forum, it is not a policy document. The G2SS, the Sea Scout Manual, and other BSA documents (not periodicals) are what we use for policy. They don’t change monthly or weekly.
  • The particular article you referenced in https://scoutingmagazine.org/ only includes one exception: “…, in the case of merit badge counseling, one of the Scout’s parents can serve as the second required adult.” This is not in alignment with the FAQs that lists two examples. Which am I to believe? A stated allowance is not a declared prohibition to all other situations.
  • Please show me on the https://www.scouting.org/ website where it states that this magazine is an official communication from the BSA. To my surprise, I couldn’t find such a statement.

Regarding my logic. You asked “what logic?” Here it is, copied and pasted from this string’s earlier entries:

From 07/16/2021:

From the FAQ page: “Adult Supervision
Q: The Barriers to Abuse say that there must be two registered adults present for all Scouting activities and meetings. Does that include merit badge counseling? Fund-raising events?
A. Yes. However, the parent or legal guardian of the Scout may serve as the second adult. This parent or legal guardian does not have to be a registered leader.”

While it could have been written better to make the point:

  • “Merit badge counseling” & “fund-raising events” are only two specific examples of “all Scouting activities and meetings”

  • The continuing explanation including “ the ” parent is not specifically directed towards these 2 examples and on my read is generic enough to be applied to "all Scouting activities and meetings.

And later on 07/17/221:

The FAQ question says: “Does that include…”

That ,” in this case, is " The Barriers to Abuse say that there must be two registered adults present for all Scouting activities and meetings."

The FAQ answer directly answers the question regarding the 2 activity examples.

The FAQ answer also states " However , the parent or legal guardian of the Scout may serve as the second adult. " There is no specific reference to the 2 examples in this statement and the FAQ answer is commenting on the “ that ” of the FAQ question by using the word “ however ” to separate the answer from the 2 examples.

Again, I give you the opportunity to refute it with BSA refences.

Regarding my apparent willingness to ignore the multiple examples from various BSA publications that are inconsistent with his interpretation.

  • I’ve supplied my logic, you supply your “various BSA publications” that refute my argument.
  • My only willingness here is to not accept undocumented statements of fact.

Regarding “presuming that he discounts the ones to which he’s already been directed”

  • I’ve made my argument in the above restated logic. Stating that I discounted the various BSA references is not correct. I in fact used them in my argument.
  • You have made no attempt to support your opinion with either supportive logic or clear documentation.

I must say I’m disappointed in the candor of this forum. “Either agree or get attacked” is not the discussion platform I was hoping for; especially from a Scoutbook User Advisory Council member.

Lone Scout Friend and Counselor Guidebook (PDF), 511-420, ©2019 Boy Scouts of America, 2019 Printing, page 23:

References and links listed here are official resources of the BSA or the World Organization of the Scout Movement. Many other websites may be helpful in presenting Scouting programs, but please note that some are unofficial and unauthorized by the BSA. Their content may or may not represent correct or appropriate interpretations of BSA policies and procedures, and the sites may or may not be up to date.

Resources > Helpful Links, Online Periodicals, and Social Networking Resources > Educational presentations on various aspects of BSA advancement

Matthew,

There have been many posts that have pointed you to the official documentation which is the Guide to Safe Scouting, Barriers to Abuse and the corresponding FAQ.

In these 3 documents, there are only 2 exceptions listed for the requirement that two registered leaders over the age of 21 must be present at any event and if a female youth is present, there must be a female adult present. These are when working with a Merit Badge Counselor and fundraising. There are no exceptions listed for any other type of activity.

You are asking us to show you where the documents say these are the only exceptions. They will not. The assumption is the exceptions to the rules are listed. There is no need to say that these are the only exceptions. If there were more exceptions, they would have been listed as well.

I’m glad you are pursuing this through official channels. Keep in mind, if the answer comes from your Council, it only applies to your Council, not to the BSA in general.

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