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Uniform Guide Confusion for Cub Scouts and Scouters

Scout shop should take the picture down from the website if that is the case. Offending photo is still up.

Neckerchiefs and Collars

In reply to:

They still do. See Bryan on Scouting article “Do you wear your neckerchief over or under the collar?” article of May 4, 2018.

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Addressing some things mentioned above:

The “minimum uniform” … [is the neckerchief]

I believe the part of the Insignia Guide referenced near this quote was not meant to convey that the minimum uniform is the neckerchief, so I think that meaning was read into it that wasn’t intended. I think the quoted material was to clarify that the neckerchief may be worn with non-uniform clothing. More info.

the Scout Shop photo has a Den Leader with green not red pack numerals

This rule creates confusion. I wish the numerals simply corresponded to the uniform shirt type. E.g., red numerals go with blue Cub Scout, yellow female Cub Scout leader, or green Venturing. All tan uniforms should have the tan numerals regardless of program.

Shoulder loops, ribbon, on shoulder epaulets; the color identifies the wearer’s primary registered position in Scouting

That doesn’t make sense. The epaulets are an ensemble with the position patch. If your position patch is of a Cub Scout Den Leader, then you wear the blue epaulets. The primary registration is rather arbitrary and may reflect concerns totally unrelated to your current position, such as which unit or level is easiest to register as primary with, which unit or level you registered with first, etc.

Also, I am a Venturing Adviser, but my primary is as a Cubmaster. I would not think of wearing the blue epaulets on the green Venturing uniform shirt.

What we really don’t need are the green unit numerals. We should have only white numerals on red for almost everyone and white numerals on blue for Sea Scouts.

For Webelos crossing over from a pack to a troop with the same unit number, they need to change the numerals on their uniform. Why?

For chartered organization representatives who serve both a back and a troop with the same unit numbers, they need two shirts or some Velcro wizardry.

The way the white on red unit numerals stand our makes them superior to the green ones. They look good on any color uniform. They would even look good on the Sea Scout uniform, but the white on blue looks equally good. The green numerals don’t stand out. They seem to fade into the background.

Peter

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Bill,

I just searched the Scout Shop website, and Webelos den leader neckerchiefs are currently unavailable.I had searched for them a few weeks ago with the same result. I wonder whether they’re being discontinued. Very people actually know what they are, and I don’t recall ever seeing anyone wearing one.

Peter

I am also fine with that. The current state is just needless complexity.

That’s another case where there is no rational reason for the product to even exist. As I wrote in another post, the leader of a den should simply be called Den Leader across all six years of Cub Scouts. There is no rational reason to change the patch or neckerchief just because your kids entered fourth grade.

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Chartered Organization Representatives

In reply to:

Chartered Organization Representative are council (and district) Scouters. When wearing the silver shoulder loops for council/district employees and volunteer leaders and Chartered Organization Representative position badge (No. 490) I believe they should not be wearing unit numbers on their field uniform shirt sleeve. .Is there an authoritative document stating that they may wear unit numbers?

(In my district we have some organizations that sponsor units with different unit numbers.)

Unit numbers are not worn on the dress uniform.

I don’t think I have ever run into a Chartered Organization Rep in uniform.

I suggest contacting Scout Shop customer service. When I checked for another item, the customer service person checked a national database that has store inventory information in it.

My local Scout Shop has about five of them 2 days ago with the product label “64078 Neck WE Leader”.

Bill,

I agree with you that CORs are not expected to wear unit numbers on their uniforms shirts, and they are probably not supposed to do so. In places where I’ve been active in Scouting, there were very few CORs that were engaged with their units, and, consequently, very few who ever appeared in uniform. When a COR is frequently seen in uniform, s/he is usually deeply involved with his or her unit(s), and all the ones I can recall seeing or knowing wore the unit numbers on their uniforms. While these individuals are members of the council that governs the council as well as members of the district committee, their emotional bonds are usually to their units, and, right or wrong, they consider that their first responsibility.

The COR position patch is found in the universal and nonunit insignia section of the Guide to Awards and Insignia. Under the description it says it is to be worn by a “council Scouter.” That’s a pretty strong indication that unit numbers are not expected to be worn with that position patch, but I haven’t seen anything that bluntly says doing so is forbidden.

If I were to encounter a uniformed COR who is obviously actively engaged with his or her unit(s), I wouldn’t dream of suggesting that the unit numerals do not belong on the uniform. (I never bring up points about other adults’ uniforms anyway, but I’ll discuss it, if they open the door to the conversation.) I would not want to disturb any positive energy a COR is bringing to his or her unit(s).

An indication that the COR may wear unit numerals is the fact that the COR appears on the unit roster. So, while a COR is a council Scouter, s/he is also a unit Scouter. On page 16 of the Chartered Organization Representative Guidebook (see https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/511-421(16)_WEB.pdf) shows an organization chart for a Cub Scout pack. It is impossible to tell in the chart where the chartered organization ends and where the Cub Scout pack begins. Studying the chart may lead some to conclude that the COR is part of both and thus both a unit and a council Scouter.

CORs that have multiple units with different numbers likely would not wear unit numerals. In the past, it hasn’t been uncommon for LDS chartering organizations to have three Boy Scout troops, and each would typically have the same COR.

Peter

COR uniform and non-uniform clothing

Peter,

Thank you for your research and reply. I am finding the samethings that you did.

The organization chart in the Cub Scout Leader Book (2018), p. 26, shows the charter organization and chartered organization representative (COR) above the pack committee.

A COR has job duties and may have functional roles at the unit, chartered organization, district and council levels. Depending on how the local council is organized the COR may also have a role at the sub-district level.

The COR wears the silver (council/district) shoulder loops on the BSA field uniform when wearing the COR position patch.

Since 2015 Scouts and Scouters have been authorized to wear a Scouting neckerchief with non-BSA-uniform clothing when participating in a scouting activity. It would not surprise me to see a COR wearing a neckerchief over a business suit and tie or with a non-BSA-uniform.

The COR (and other Scouters) may also wear the Scouter Dress Uniform.

I would not expect to see a COR wearing Cub Scout ladies’s yellow blouse since the COR position is a council one.

Bill,

The silver shoulder loops are clear.

Your comment about the yellow blouse brings up an interesting question. Suppose someone’s only registered position is chair of the national Cub Scout committee, The uniform inspection sheet says female Cub Scout leaders may wear the yellow blouse, Is such a person a “Cub Scout leader?” Arguably, the answer is yes. The uniform inspections sheet does not say leader “in a den or pack.”

In 2005, during Wood Badge staff development, we watched a video that feature Ellie Morrison, currently the national commissioner. I had met Ms. Morrison at Philmont in 2003. She wore a yellow blouse in the video. I know that she held positions both at the national level and with local units at the time. To this day, she remains involved with local units, even after becoming national commissioner. I do not remember what position patch she wore on that yellow blouse in the video, so there’s no way to know for sure how she understands the yellow blouse rule, but she certainly wasn’t making that video in her capacity as a pack committee member. While at Philmont in 2003, Ms. Morrison was a training course facilitator, and she wore a tan short.

I don’t know whether Ms. Morrison has ever been a member of the national (or any) Cub Scout committee. As I recall, and I could be wrong, she was a member of the national training committee in 2003.

So then, would a member of the national Venturing committee wear a green shirt? The answer should be the same as the yellow blouse answer for those holding national, regional, area, council or district positions whose role focuses on Cub Scouting.

Peter

OK Peter, you have me thinking again. My exception is not the same as what BSA has approved to be worn.

Different programs (with the exception of the Exploring program) have different nationally approved uniforms available. (I am not sure about STEM Scouts, without doing some research.)

Scouting program management extends from BSA national through several levels to the unit. For some international programs down from WOSM to the unit.

For Venturing there is a twist in the rules. Venturing crews can use the national green top and grey bottom Venturing uniform or design their own format and activity uniforms per the Venturing Advisor Guidebook (2014) , “Method: Group Identity - The Crew Uniform”, pp. 123-126.

At the council level, my council’s Venturing advisor wears the Venturing uniform at council-wide Venturing Officer Association meetings.

Which uniforms does the COR chose to wear if the chartered organization has a pack, troop, crew and/or ship? The cost of multiple uniforms is likely to be a issue in some cases.

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Bill,

I suspect most council Venturing advisors wear a standard Venturing uniform when they are performing the duties of that role (since they are not acting as part of a crew that might have its own group identity).

Based on my unscientific observations, I would say that Venturing crews today are more likely to adopt the standard Venturing uniform than they were 20 years ago.

I would say that if it is ok for a council Venturing advisor to wear a green shirt, then is is ok for a female council Cub Scout committee chair to wear a yellow blouse. They’re either both right or both wrong, unless we can find authority that says otherwise.

Peter

YMMV. If you go to roundtable in my district, you’ll see plenty of CORs in uniform. My predecessor as COR for our troop is still an active leader – he camps with us every month, and has even done Philmont with our crew twice.

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I’m a COR, and while that makes me a voting member of the council, COR is not a Council position, it’s a unit position. I’m appointed by the head of our chartered organization, not by anybody in Council.

For uniform purposes, COR seems to be considered a council position, because they wear silver shoulder loops:

BSA Guide to Awards and Insignia (Special Regulations and also Universal and Nonunit Insignia)

Bryan on Scouting: What do the different colors of Scouting shoulder loops mean?

I cannot find anything about whether they can wear unit numbers or not.

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image

Just thought a screenshot from the Special Regulations document would be handy.

Steve, In reply to:

My understanding is that

  • the COR is registered at the council level using the membership position code “CR”. The registration is linked to the council, district, organization, and the organization’s units.
  • the COR is a Council Scouter, not a Unit Scouter.
  • In the my.Scouting Training Manger Trained Leader Report the COR is shown with “Direct_Contact_Leader=NO”
  • The COR’s primary position is a chartered organization one which is one level above the unit. (See chart in the Cub Scout Leader Book.)
  • The COR is automatically a voting member of the council and district committees.
  • The COR can vote to elect district members-at-large.

Per Cub Scout Leader Book (2018), p. 25, Youth and Volunteer Support, The Chartered Organization, paragraph 3:

A member of the organization, the chartered organization representative, acts as liaison between the organization and its Scouting units and serves as a voting member of the local council. The chartered organization representative is often someone who is responsible for all of the organization’s youth programs.

Per the national RULES AND REGULATIONS OF THE BOY SCOUTS OF AMERICA (June 2018), p. 10, IV. UNITS AND CHARTERED ORGANIZATIONS, Unit Program Leaders, paragraph 4:

The chartered organization must select and its representative must approve unit leaders.


Post created 2019-07-01
Post last updated: 2019-07-14 09:14pm PDT

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Bill,

I visited the Scout Shop in Wilmington, Delaware today. It is run by BSA National Supply. They had three Webelos den leader neckerchiefs on the shelves. I inquired as to why these do not appear on scoutshop.org. After checking the computer, the Scout Shop staffer informed me that these neckerchiefs have been discontinued. No more of them will be made. They have not been tagged for destruction; Scout Shops may sell out existing inventory, but they may not order more.

Once the neckerchiefs are gone, we’ll need a new rule for the appropriate neckwear for Webelos den leaders.

Peter

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