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Uniform Guide Confusion for Cub Scouts and Scouters

Bill,

I suspect most council Venturing advisors wear a standard Venturing uniform when they are performing the duties of that role (since they are not acting as part of a crew that might have its own group identity).

Based on my unscientific observations, I would say that Venturing crews today are more likely to adopt the standard Venturing uniform than they were 20 years ago.

I would say that if it is ok for a council Venturing advisor to wear a green shirt, then is is ok for a female council Cub Scout committee chair to wear a yellow blouse. They’re either both right or both wrong, unless we can find authority that says otherwise.

Peter

YMMV. If you go to roundtable in my district, you’ll see plenty of CORs in uniform. My predecessor as COR for our troop is still an active leader – he camps with us every month, and has even done Philmont with our crew twice.

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I’m a COR, and while that makes me a voting member of the council, COR is not a Council position, it’s a unit position. I’m appointed by the head of our chartered organization, not by anybody in Council.

For uniform purposes, COR seems to be considered a council position, because they wear silver shoulder loops:

BSA Guide to Awards and Insignia (Special Regulations and also Universal and Nonunit Insignia)

Bryan on Scouting: What do the different colors of Scouting shoulder loops mean?

I cannot find anything about whether they can wear unit numbers or not.

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image

Just thought a screenshot from the Special Regulations document would be handy.

Steve, In reply to:

My understanding is that

  • the COR is registered at the council level using the membership position code “CR”. The registration is linked to the council, district, organization, and the organization’s units.
  • the COR is a Council Scouter, not a Unit Scouter.
  • In the my.Scouting Training Manger Trained Leader Report the COR is shown with “Direct_Contact_Leader=NO”
  • The COR’s primary position is a chartered organization one which is one level above the unit. (See chart in the Cub Scout Leader Book.)
  • The COR is automatically a voting member of the council and district committees.
  • The COR can vote to elect district members-at-large.

Per Cub Scout Leader Book (2018), p. 25, Youth and Volunteer Support, The Chartered Organization, paragraph 3:

A member of the organization, the chartered organization representative, acts as liaison between the organization and its Scouting units and serves as a voting member of the local council. The chartered organization representative is often someone who is responsible for all of the organization’s youth programs.

Per the national RULES AND REGULATIONS OF THE BOY SCOUTS OF AMERICA (June 2018), p. 10, IV. UNITS AND CHARTERED ORGANIZATIONS, Unit Program Leaders, paragraph 4:

The chartered organization must select and its representative must approve unit leaders.


Post created 2019-07-01
Post last updated: 2019-07-14 09:14pm PDT

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Bill,

I visited the Scout Shop in Wilmington, Delaware today. It is run by BSA National Supply. They had three Webelos den leader neckerchiefs on the shelves. I inquired as to why these do not appear on scoutshop.org. After checking the computer, the Scout Shop staffer informed me that these neckerchiefs have been discontinued. No more of them will be made. They have not been tagged for destruction; Scout Shops may sell out existing inventory, but they may not order more.

Once the neckerchiefs are gone, we’ll need a new rule for the appropriate neckwear for Webelos den leaders.

Peter

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Peter, since the Webelos Den Leader itle was retired June 1, 2018, along with Tiger Den Leader, I am not surprised they would retire the neckerchief. You can have the Den Leaders wear the Cub Scout Leader Neckerchief (Item: 64070 = $10.99), or some Packs have them wear the same neckerchief that their Scouts in their Den wears.

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Hi Ken, In reply to:

Do you have a source reference to cite pertaining to these title retirements?
I am seeing:
image
© 2019 Boy Scouts of America, from How Cub Scouting is Organized (downloaded 2019-07-06)

This discussion topic is about uniforms. Please continue the discussion about den leader titles in the Let’s use “Den Leader” across all levels of Cub Scouts discussiont topic.

I guess the good news is that they aren’t bringing back the dreaded and loathed red BSA beret.

Some BSA Cub Scout Hat History

The red beret does not appear to have been introduced until 1972. Before there were Cub Scouts, there were apparently Junior Scouts in troops. I have no idea what pack leaders were wearing after Cub Scouting became an official BSA program.

1930 Cub Scout Beanies

There is a photograph of the 1930 Cub Scout beanie in "Early Cub Scout Uniforms, By Craig Murray, at the non-BSA Sageventure website.

1997 Leader Hats

In 1997 the optional hat was a visor cap.

“FEMALE LEADER UNIFORM INSPECTION SHEET”, form 34281A, ISBN 0-8395-4281-X, ©1997 Boy Scouts of America, 1999 printing:

Cap (optional).Leaders wear the same visored cap as the youth they serve—blue and gold for Cub Scouting, blue and light blue for Webelos Scouting, olive and red for Boy Scouting, and brown and blaze for Varsity Scouting. Campaign hat may be worn at troop option by Boy Scout leaders.

BSA Red Beret History

Was the red beret was ever worn by Cub Scouts or Cub Scout adult leaders?

There are some interesting comments about berets in Ask Andy, Issue 263, July 6, 2011, a non-BSA publication.

Scout and Scouter Uniforms

Here are some interesting articles:

The Way It Was - From Doughboy Duds to Oscar de la Renta
By Robert Peterson, Illustration by Joel Snyder, Scouting magazine, October 2002, © 2002 by the Boy Scouts of America.

The most complete overhaul of the Boy Scout uniform in nearly 60 years occurred in 1980. Fashion designer Oscar de la Renta donated his services for a two-year project of remaking all uniforms, for Boy Scouts, Cub Scouts, Explorers, and both men and women adult Scouters.The most complete overhaul of the Boy Scout uniform in nearly 60 years occurred in 1980. Fashion designer Oscar de la Renta donated his services for a two-year project of remaking all uniforms, for Boy Scouts, Cub Scouts, Explorers, and both men and women adult Scouters. …

Whether to include a neckerchief was a decision left up to each troop. Troops could also choose to wear either the new baseball-style cap, a red beret (introduced in 1972), or the classic “Smokey Bear” campaign hat.


Oscar de la Renta, designer of Scout uniforms worn by millions, dies at 82”, Scouting magazine Bryan on Scouting article, October 21, 2014, By Bryan Wendell, includes an illustrated article, "Scouting in Style, by By Scott Daniels, Illustrations by Joel Snyder, Scouting magazine (after 1999?, 58 years after BSA introduced its Scout uniforms), with:

image and image

Popular baseball-style caps in appropriate colors replace the old Cub Scout, Webelos Scout, and Boy Scout visored caps

Design of the Times”, By John Clark, Photographs by John R. Fulton Jr., Scouting magazine, September 2008

Post created: 2019-07-12
Updated 2019-07-13 12:12 pm PDT

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Peter,

Our COR covers multiple troops and our Pack. I was thinking of giving him a uniform with all patches sewn on as a thank you for over a decade of service. Because the gift is coming from the Pack, I would have the Pack 110 white on red sewn on the uniform. He is also COR for Troop 110 Boys and Troop 110 Girls. Your thoughts?

Very Respectfully,

Scott

@ScottMarbut,

In case it helps with your deliberations, I use tan Velcro for a number of patches on my uniform blouse. You might be able to do something similar with the unit numbers if you wished (one set of white on red, one set of forest on khaki, both on hook-side backing).

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In order to wear a BSA uniform the COR needs to be a registered member in good standing. A retired COR may not be registered.

CORs do not normally wear unit numbers. (The one exception I can think of is the Woodbadge unit 1 neckerchief.)

May I suggest a certificate with the insignia mounted around it in a over-sized photo frame be given instead. The BSA Scout Shop sells a Boy Scout Award Frame:

image
Item 17667, 16" x 22"

Per the use of uniform paragraph in the rules and regulations:

No alteration of, or additions to, the official uniforms, as described in the official guidelines or the Rules and Regulations covering the wearing of the uniform and the proper combinations thereof on official occasions, may be authorized by any Scouting official or local council. It is the responsibility of all leaders of the Boy Scouts of America and especially of all commissioned officers and chartered councils to cooperate with the Boy Scouts of America in preventing the use of the official uniforms by those who are not registered and in good standing

Paul,

I just got home from a week in Cub World in Alpine, New Jersey, I brought a red beret to wear to the evening flag ceremony for the camp’s Crazy Hat Day. It was the beret I wore as a youth from 1977 to 1985. My daughter (a Wolf), wore the Cub Scout beanie I wore from 1974 to 1976, with the yellow stripes going down the sides.

I also brought an overseas cap with me and wore it at another evening’s flag ceremony. I only remember wearing this hat as a youth during JLTC. My daughter gave my Cub Scout beanie an encore performance that same night. We labeled this our 1969 headgear in honor of the 50th anniversary of the first lunar landing.

The red beret got lots of positive feedback.

Ken,

I would suggest the same for the time being: a den leader of a Webelos den should wear a Cub Scout leader neckerchief. However, the uniform inspection form and other documents need to be updated to clarify this. That was the point of my post.

I agree that it does make sense that the neckerchief is eliminated, if the name of the position is eliminated or changed to den leader, however one wants to look at it.

Of course, since BSA uniform parts are not obsoleted by default, a den leader of a Webelos den ought to be able to wear the Webelos den leader neckerchief, if s/he happens to have one. At least, that’s my opinion, based on a conclusion that a modern-day den leader of a Webelos den is effectively the same as a Webelos den leader, the position for which the neckerchiefs were made.

Peter

Scott,

I agree with the suggestion @Bill_W that a framed display would make a much better recognition item than a uniform with lots of position patches sewn onto it. You could then include all the unit numerals in appropriate color combinations for the units the COR has served. It would allow you to organize the appearance of your gift to the COR far better than a sleeve of a uniform shirt would.

Peter

The COR is not retiring, he is still active.I never stated he was not in good standing. I never stated that he is retiring. He is in good standing with current YPT and fully position trained. It is more a celebration of a decade of service, I doubt the Troops that he sponsors will recognize him. I also think this is a way to be more inviting to participate with the Pack.

Peter and Bill,

I disagree with your assessment of a framed display, we live in tiny apartments no storage this item would most likely be discarded in Okinawa. Personally I have thrown away tons of stuff, and have a lot more to do as I live in a 800 square foot apartment with a family of four.

He is retired military just as I am, soon there is to much stuff to put on your “I Love Me wall.” I find a sewn uniform with patches to be more thrifty as he can still wear it to events if he wants.

Furthermore to make a wall display it would cost a lot more, and I would have to do a ton of research to his involvement in scouting, which I do not have the time nor the resources to do right now. Our Pack is closing in on 30 years service to the community, so I think this would be a nice tip of the hat to our Charter Organization who has made it possible.

Very Respectfully,

2019-07-14
Scott, my apologies for making a false assumption that the COR was retiring as COR. I also never wrote or implied that the COR was not in good standing. I was only quoting BSA national policy.

2019-07-15
For a compact gift may I suggest a special neckerchief with the charter organization name and pack white on red unit numbers on it? The International Adult Neckerchief , SKU: 611547, appears to have room above the embroidered emblem.

Per the Guide to Awards and Insignia (2018), special regulations, p. 13 (upper right):

Special neckerchiefs, the same size as the official ones, may be authorized by local
councils. Such neckerchiefs may include identification of the chartered organization. The standard designed neckerchief may be personalized with troop number, city, and state.

I think you can stretch “troop” to “pack”…

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