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Uniform Guide Confusion for Cub Scouts and Scouters

I suggest contacting Scout Shop customer service. When I checked for another item, the customer service person checked a national database that has store inventory information in it.

My local Scout Shop has about five of them 2 days ago with the product label “64078 Neck WE Leader”.

Bill,

I agree with you that CORs are not expected to wear unit numbers on their uniforms shirts, and they are probably not supposed to do so. In places where I’ve been active in Scouting, there were very few CORs that were engaged with their units, and, consequently, very few who ever appeared in uniform. When a COR is frequently seen in uniform, s/he is usually deeply involved with his or her unit(s), and all the ones I can recall seeing or knowing wore the unit numbers on their uniforms. While these individuals are members of the council that governs the council as well as members of the district committee, their emotional bonds are usually to their units, and, right or wrong, they consider that their first responsibility.

The COR position patch is found in the universal and nonunit insignia section of the Guide to Awards and Insignia. Under the description it says it is to be worn by a “council Scouter.” That’s a pretty strong indication that unit numbers are not expected to be worn with that position patch, but I haven’t seen anything that bluntly says doing so is forbidden.

If I were to encounter a uniformed COR who is obviously actively engaged with his or her unit(s), I wouldn’t dream of suggesting that the unit numerals do not belong on the uniform. (I never bring up points about other adults’ uniforms anyway, but I’ll discuss it, if they open the door to the conversation.) I would not want to disturb any positive energy a COR is bringing to his or her unit(s).

An indication that the COR may wear unit numerals is the fact that the COR appears on the unit roster. So, while a COR is a council Scouter, s/he is also a unit Scouter. On page 16 of the Chartered Organization Representative Guidebook (see https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/511-421(16)_WEB.pdf) shows an organization chart for a Cub Scout pack. It is impossible to tell in the chart where the chartered organization ends and where the Cub Scout pack begins. Studying the chart may lead some to conclude that the COR is part of both and thus both a unit and a council Scouter.

CORs that have multiple units with different numbers likely would not wear unit numerals. In the past, it hasn’t been uncommon for LDS chartering organizations to have three Boy Scout troops, and each would typically have the same COR.

Peter

COR uniform and non-uniform clothing

Peter,

Thank you for your research and reply. I am finding the samethings that you did.

The organization chart in the Cub Scout Leader Book (2018), p. 26, shows the charter organization and chartered organization representative (COR) above the pack committee.

A COR has job duties and may have functional roles at the unit, chartered organization, district and council levels. Depending on how the local council is organized the COR may also have a role at the sub-district level.

The COR wears the silver (council/district) shoulder loops on the BSA field uniform when wearing the COR position patch.

Since 2015 Scouts and Scouters have been authorized to wear a Scouting neckerchief with non-BSA-uniform clothing when participating in a scouting activity. It would not surprise me to see a COR wearing a neckerchief over a business suit and tie or with a non-BSA-uniform.

The COR (and other Scouters) may also wear the Scouter Dress Uniform.

I would not expect to see a COR wearing Cub Scout ladies’s yellow blouse since the COR position is a council one.

Bill,

The silver shoulder loops are clear.

Your comment about the yellow blouse brings up an interesting question. Suppose someone’s only registered position is chair of the national Cub Scout committee, The uniform inspection sheet says female Cub Scout leaders may wear the yellow blouse, Is such a person a “Cub Scout leader?” Arguably, the answer is yes. The uniform inspections sheet does not say leader “in a den or pack.”

In 2005, during Wood Badge staff development, we watched a video that feature Ellie Morrison, currently the national commissioner. I had met Ms. Morrison at Philmont in 2003. She wore a yellow blouse in the video. I know that she held positions both at the national level and with local units at the time. To this day, she remains involved with local units, even after becoming national commissioner. I do not remember what position patch she wore on that yellow blouse in the video, so there’s no way to know for sure how she understands the yellow blouse rule, but she certainly wasn’t making that video in her capacity as a pack committee member. While at Philmont in 2003, Ms. Morrison was a training course facilitator, and she wore a tan short.

I don’t know whether Ms. Morrison has ever been a member of the national (or any) Cub Scout committee. As I recall, and I could be wrong, she was a member of the national training committee in 2003.

So then, would a member of the national Venturing committee wear a green shirt? The answer should be the same as the yellow blouse answer for those holding national, regional, area, council or district positions whose role focuses on Cub Scouting.

Peter

OK Peter, you have me thinking again. My exception is not the same as what BSA has approved to be worn.

Different programs (with the exception of the Exploring program) have different nationally approved uniforms available. (I am not sure about STEM Scouts, without doing some research.)

Scouting program management extends from BSA national through several levels to the unit. For some international programs down from WOSM to the unit.

For Venturing there is a twist in the rules. Venturing crews can use the national green top and grey bottom Venturing uniform or design their own format and activity uniforms per the Venturing Advisor Guidebook (2014) , “Method: Group Identity - The Crew Uniform”, pp. 123-126.

At the council level, my council’s Venturing advisor wears the Venturing uniform at council-wide Venturing Officer Association meetings.

Which uniforms does the COR chose to wear if the chartered organization has a pack, troop, crew and/or ship? The cost of multiple uniforms is likely to be a issue in some cases.

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Bill,

I suspect most council Venturing advisors wear a standard Venturing uniform when they are performing the duties of that role (since they are not acting as part of a crew that might have its own group identity).

Based on my unscientific observations, I would say that Venturing crews today are more likely to adopt the standard Venturing uniform than they were 20 years ago.

I would say that if it is ok for a council Venturing advisor to wear a green shirt, then is is ok for a female council Cub Scout committee chair to wear a yellow blouse. They’re either both right or both wrong, unless we can find authority that says otherwise.

Peter

YMMV. If you go to roundtable in my district, you’ll see plenty of CORs in uniform. My predecessor as COR for our troop is still an active leader – he camps with us every month, and has even done Philmont with our crew twice.

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I’m a COR, and while that makes me a voting member of the council, COR is not a Council position, it’s a unit position. I’m appointed by the head of our chartered organization, not by anybody in Council.

For uniform purposes, COR seems to be considered a council position, because they wear silver shoulder loops:

BSA Guide to Awards and Insignia (Special Regulations and also Universal and Nonunit Insignia)

Bryan on Scouting: What do the different colors of Scouting shoulder loops mean?

I cannot find anything about whether they can wear unit numbers or not.

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image

Just thought a screenshot from the Special Regulations document would be handy.

Steve, In reply to:

My understanding is that

  • the COR is registered at the council level using the membership position code “CR”. The registration is linked to the council, district, organization, and the organization’s units.
  • the COR is a Council Scouter, not a Unit Scouter.
  • In the my.Scouting Training Manger Trained Leader Report the COR is shown with “Direct_Contact_Leader=NO”
  • The COR’s primary position is a chartered organization one which is one level above the unit. (See chart in the Cub Scout Leader Book.)
  • The COR is automatically a voting member of the council and district committees.
  • The COR can vote to elect district members-at-large.

Per Cub Scout Leader Book (2018), p. 25, Youth and Volunteer Support, The Chartered Organization, paragraph 3:

A member of the organization, the chartered organization representative, acts as liaison between the organization and its Scouting units and serves as a voting member of the local council. The chartered organization representative is often someone who is responsible for all of the organization’s youth programs.

Per the national RULES AND REGULATIONS OF THE BOY SCOUTS OF AMERICA (June 2018), p. 10, IV. UNITS AND CHARTERED ORGANIZATIONS, Unit Program Leaders, paragraph 4:

The chartered organization must select and its representative must approve unit leaders.


Post created 2019-07-01
Post last updated: 2019-07-14 09:14pm PDT

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Bill,

I visited the Scout Shop in Wilmington, Delaware today. It is run by BSA National Supply. They had three Webelos den leader neckerchiefs on the shelves. I inquired as to why these do not appear on scoutshop.org. After checking the computer, the Scout Shop staffer informed me that these neckerchiefs have been discontinued. No more of them will be made. They have not been tagged for destruction; Scout Shops may sell out existing inventory, but they may not order more.

Once the neckerchiefs are gone, we’ll need a new rule for the appropriate neckwear for Webelos den leaders.

Peter

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Peter, since the Webelos Den Leader itle was retired June 1, 2018, along with Tiger Den Leader, I am not surprised they would retire the neckerchief. You can have the Den Leaders wear the Cub Scout Leader Neckerchief (Item: 64070 = $10.99), or some Packs have them wear the same neckerchief that their Scouts in their Den wears.

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Hi Ken, In reply to:

Do you have a source reference to cite pertaining to these title retirements?
I am seeing:
image
© 2019 Boy Scouts of America, from How Cub Scouting is Organized (downloaded 2019-07-06)

This discussion topic is about uniforms. Please continue the discussion about den leader titles in the Let’s use “Den Leader” across all levels of Cub Scouts discussiont topic.

I guess the good news is that they aren’t bringing back the dreaded and loathed red BSA beret.

Some BSA Cub Scout Hat History

The red beret does not appear to have been introduced until 1972. Before there were Cub Scouts, there were apparently Junior Scouts in troops. I have no idea what pack leaders were wearing after Cub Scouting became an official BSA program.

1930 Cub Scout Beanies

There is a photograph of the 1930 Cub Scout beanie in "Early Cub Scout Uniforms, By Craig Murray, at the non-BSA Sageventure website.

1997 Leader Hats

In 1997 the optional hat was a visor cap.

“FEMALE LEADER UNIFORM INSPECTION SHEET”, form 34281A, ISBN 0-8395-4281-X, ©1997 Boy Scouts of America, 1999 printing:

Cap (optional).Leaders wear the same visored cap as the youth they serve—blue and gold for Cub Scouting, blue and light blue for Webelos Scouting, olive and red for Boy Scouting, and brown and blaze for Varsity Scouting. Campaign hat may be worn at troop option by Boy Scout leaders.

BSA Red Beret History

Was the red beret was ever worn by Cub Scouts or Cub Scout adult leaders?

There are some interesting comments about berets in Ask Andy, Issue 263, July 6, 2011, a non-BSA publication.

Scout and Scouter Uniforms

Here are some interesting articles:

The Way It Was - From Doughboy Duds to Oscar de la Renta
By Robert Peterson, Illustration by Joel Snyder, Scouting magazine, October 2002, © 2002 by the Boy Scouts of America.

The most complete overhaul of the Boy Scout uniform in nearly 60 years occurred in 1980. Fashion designer Oscar de la Renta donated his services for a two-year project of remaking all uniforms, for Boy Scouts, Cub Scouts, Explorers, and both men and women adult Scouters.The most complete overhaul of the Boy Scout uniform in nearly 60 years occurred in 1980. Fashion designer Oscar de la Renta donated his services for a two-year project of remaking all uniforms, for Boy Scouts, Cub Scouts, Explorers, and both men and women adult Scouters. …

Whether to include a neckerchief was a decision left up to each troop. Troops could also choose to wear either the new baseball-style cap, a red beret (introduced in 1972), or the classic “Smokey Bear” campaign hat.


Oscar de la Renta, designer of Scout uniforms worn by millions, dies at 82”, Scouting magazine Bryan on Scouting article, October 21, 2014, By Bryan Wendell, includes an illustrated article, "Scouting in Style, by By Scott Daniels, Illustrations by Joel Snyder, Scouting magazine (after 1999?, 58 years after BSA introduced its Scout uniforms), with:

image and image

Popular baseball-style caps in appropriate colors replace the old Cub Scout, Webelos Scout, and Boy Scout visored caps

Design of the Times”, By John Clark, Photographs by John R. Fulton Jr., Scouting magazine, September 2008

Post created: 2019-07-12
Updated 2019-07-13 12:12 pm PDT

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Peter,

Our COR covers multiple troops and our Pack. I was thinking of giving him a uniform with all patches sewn on as a thank you for over a decade of service. Because the gift is coming from the Pack, I would have the Pack 110 white on red sewn on the uniform. He is also COR for Troop 110 Boys and Troop 110 Girls. Your thoughts?

Very Respectfully,

Scott

@ScottMarbut,

In case it helps with your deliberations, I use tan Velcro for a number of patches on my uniform blouse. You might be able to do something similar with the unit numbers if you wished (one set of white on red, one set of forest on khaki, both on hook-side backing).

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In order to wear a BSA uniform the COR needs to be a registered member in good standing. A retired COR may not be registered.

CORs do not normally wear unit numbers. (The one exception I can think of is the Woodbadge unit 1 neckerchief.)

May I suggest a certificate with the insignia mounted around it in a over-sized photo frame be given instead. The BSA Scout Shop sells a Boy Scout Award Frame:

image
Item 17667, 16" x 22"

Per the use of uniform paragraph in the rules and regulations:

No alteration of, or additions to, the official uniforms, as described in the official guidelines or the Rules and Regulations covering the wearing of the uniform and the proper combinations thereof on official occasions, may be authorized by any Scouting official or local council. It is the responsibility of all leaders of the Boy Scouts of America and especially of all commissioned officers and chartered councils to cooperate with the Boy Scouts of America in preventing the use of the official uniforms by those who are not registered and in good standing

Paul,

I just got home from a week in Cub World in Alpine, New Jersey, I brought a red beret to wear to the evening flag ceremony for the camp’s Crazy Hat Day. It was the beret I wore as a youth from 1977 to 1985. My daughter (a Wolf), wore the Cub Scout beanie I wore from 1974 to 1976, with the yellow stripes going down the sides.

I also brought an overseas cap with me and wore it at another evening’s flag ceremony. I only remember wearing this hat as a youth during JLTC. My daughter gave my Cub Scout beanie an encore performance that same night. We labeled this our 1969 headgear in honor of the 50th anniversary of the first lunar landing.

The red beret got lots of positive feedback.